Line Comparison

(David Walker) #41

I finally found again an old blog post from 2009 I was looking for a month ago to post here.
レベルライン3.5号! Level Line No. 3.5

Not long after starting tenkara I found this webpage, and I used to try to figure out what his diagram was trying to tell me. With only the vaguest guess. I’ve gotten better at translating Japanese so I understand it better now.

https://plaza.rakuten.co.jp/tenten2843/diary/200912010000/

Basically he is making the transition to using lighter lines. And trying to figure out the advantages and disadvantages. And figure out what adjustments he will need to make to use the lighter line.

Writing there are two schools or factions: The tapered line group: where ease of casting the line is priority, and the weight of the line is just accepted. Then the other group, the level line faction, where minimum otsuri is the priority.

But, his dilemma is he believes the most important thing in tenkara is to have line slack, to be able to take more Atari. ( he writes this in red in his blog post)

Writing this is not just his opinion alone.
That two tenkara heavy weights, Sebata-san and Katayama-san both also say so, and they are the best, are they not?

He begins from the pov of thinking a heavier line is a good thing. Because it will provide enough line slack to take more atari. The diagram is his thinking out loud, how to prove or disprove that idea or understand the adjustments to be made when switching to using a lighter line.

Here is the diagram from the above blog post.
3.5号と4.5号のラインの自重差による現象と対策
Phenomenon and measures due to the weight difference between the line of No. 3.5 and No. 4.5

Top diagram:
ライン弛みの違い (3。5号 と 4。5号)Difference in line slack ( or sag if you prefer)

(3。5号 )
たるみが少ない=「弛るみが少ない」There is little slack.
(3 ways of writing the same thing, I think. Sometimes a different font translates better.)
弛みが少ないと当たりが短い? If the slack is small, the hit/atari is short?
たるみが少ないとアタリが短い? When the slack is small, the Atari is short?
弛みが少ないとヒットが短い? Slack is small, the hit is short?
(short as in brief or quick)

4。5号
たるみが多い。There is a lot of sag/slack.
たるみが当たりを・分かり易くしている Sagging makes hits · easy to understand
たるみがアタリを・分かり易くしている Slack is easy to understand - the Atari
弛るみがアタリを・分かり易くしている Slack makes Atari · easy to understand
· easy to understand ( I think, easy to sense or grasp, the atari / hit)

Bottom diagram:
ラインの弛ませる方法 (3。5号 )To slacken the line method (No. 3.5)

弛みを多いする。Make a lot of slack. (increase the line slack/sag)

前に移動させる move forward. [ the rod position]

The idea is that with 3.5 line, the rod must be moved forward to increase line sag, (or as explained in the text, lower the rod top to increase line sag)

「ライン」弛みが当たりを分かり易くしている
“Line” slack makes it easier to understand hits
「ライン」弛みがアタリを分かり易くしている
“Line” slack makes Atari easier to understand (sense)
(In the top diagram, this is a question. Here it is asserted that increasing line sag makes it easier to take atari. And should be done.)

ラインの弛みがない ⇒ There is no slack in the line ⇒
アタリがとれず → Atari can not be taken →
フッキング率が大幅に減少 Hooking ratio is greatly reduced

[Well, so much for tight lines advice, or I guess if you take this view, when someone tells you, “tight lines”, they’re putting a spell on you, so you wont catch many fish] :open_mouth:

その対策として、竿を前に出す、または竿先を下げて、意図的にラインの弛みを作るように心掛ける必要があります。
こうすることによって、なんとかアタリがとれることがわかりました。
As a countermeasure, it is necessary to intentionally make the line slack by putting the rod forward or lowering the stick tip.
By doing this it turned out that Atari could be taken.

Of course none of this is new. I just finally got to the point where, I believe anyway, that I could understand his explanation.

He writes that this season he is doing less sight fishing. Longer lines I assume. And using his previous No. 4.5 line had to much line otsuri.
ラインを軽くした目的は、毛鉤を流している最中に、
ラインの自重により、毛鉤が引かれる(オツリ)
現象の防止したいためです。
The purpose of lightening the line is that while drifting the kebari,
Due to the weight of the line, a fly/kebari is drawn (Otsuri)
I want to prevent this phenomenon.

But moving to No. 3.5 line, he wondered if he would miss atari due to reduction in the amount of line sag. To avoid that - from the bottom diagram, he reasoned, the solution is to move the rod fast enough to keep the needed line sag, or lower the tip of the rod to keep proper line sag.

Anyway, my purpose of posting this is not to teach anything new, I could have just kept it to my self for my own amusement. The purpose for posting was just to show how other people also go walking down the path to trying to understand line behavior by drawing out diagrams. At least once in awhile. You might notice his posting date, Dec 1st. Off season. Can’t fish, might as well ponder such things. :thinking:

Please, look at his blog post for the rest, the above should help the odd digital translations. If such things interest you. (maybe I got lucky and got most of it right, but better to read the original source)

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(Peder) #42

Thanks for sharing @dwalker, this is rather interesting.

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(Gressak) #43

Yes thank you David, this is new info for me and dovetails with some other info I have been absorbing. Even the most fundamental stuff can teach a student again, so I appreciate the notes on both topics.

I am going to meditate on those notes and some of them can explain why I might not mind the attributes of furled lines. Not being able to fully articulate what seems to be fully outlined in the your last entry.

As summary…the take away…
Aspects of perspective distortion of space may make it more difficult to read movement of a line that is taut, where an arced line’s movement is easier to read.

Does that sum it up?

FYI…the line we are using is dyneema…supposedly holds no water and floats. I have not found that any water is held in this line and actually seems to shead ice droplets more than LL. There is nothing really practical in that info for most anlgers other than it speaks to the attributes of the material. Even the smallest droplets seem to repell.

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(David Walker) #44

Yes, I think so.

Not to much to study really. The blogger’s diagram wasn’t to scale or involved catenary curves and natural logarithms calculations. It was just a drawing to aid his thinking about the comparison of differing line weights.

Several tenkara technique sources speak of the advantage of leaving the line - tension free, i.e. some slack, so the fish does not reject the fly quickly. (And the kebari drifts naturally). Which I believe is also related to what is called "ito fuke’ or “line fuke” [ 糸フケ / 糸ふけ or ラインのフケ].

This translation is weird, but it conveys the basic idea, maybe.
What is ito fuke 糸フケとは

The advice seems to be to find the Goldilocks balance. Not to much, not to little, the “just right” amount.

Katayama-san writes about ito-fuke on this Daiwa line webpage:

rewritten to change some words into words that google will translate better:
こちらは魚が毛鉤を喰うのが確認できないので、ロッド先で誘いながらロッド先や・糸フケを見て、ちょっとでもおかしいと・感じたら素早く・合わせる。
Since it can not be confirmed that the fish has eaten the kebari, looking at the rod tip and yarn dandruff (ito-fuke) while inviting (sasoi) with the rod tip, if you feel it is a bit strange, quickly · match it (awase, set the hook). Hopefully the translation is more right than completely wrong.

http://www.daiwa.com/jp/fishing/item/line/keiryu_li/tahuron_tenkara/index.html

The lines I played around with a few years ago were also spectra or dyneema line, pretty much the same thing. Having worked for a Dutch company for many years I was aware dyneema was a Dutch invention, originally developed to make fishing nets. The second post on this forum post explains it, it even hints at where the name Spiderwire comes from

http://www.stripersonline.com/surftalk/topic/537972-spectra-and-or-dyneema-vs-braid-fishing-line/

Geez, guys came today to install new granite kitchen counter top. Get the plumbing reinstalled, maybe I can go a fishing, for fish, and let the subconscious figure this stuff out. Instead of fishing for trivia. :wink:

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(Gressak) #45

Catch em up David.

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(Chris Stewart) #46

David, I followed your link to try to find the blog post and it seems the 11/28/2009 blog post is about a motorcycle, not tenkara lines. What is the actual date of the blog post that covers the tenkara lines and line sag?

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(Adam Rieger) #47

This line “slack” point and strike detection/higher hooking ratio is interesting. Maybe I am missing something? but I always felt length of tippet gave you the “slack”. So if you dead drift a fly on the surface you have some tippet if not most on the water and therefore slack…but you want the otsuri at a minimum so the drift remains natural… Likewise if fishing dead drift below the surface…tippet length is your “slack” and otsuri is much more important.

If you manipulate the fly…as I often do…the “slack” is introduced by the angler in between manipulations and that “slack” is critical for both strike detection and hookup ratio…but here again a lighter line gives YOU the angler more control over the motion rather than line weight impacting that.

Just my experience and understanding but I think line weight is really about getting the cast right for a particular rod’s flex, type of fly being used or on stream conditions.

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(Gressak) #48

I was discussing this with a mutual friend last night and the note was made that some of the considerations are the context of the arc and its purpose. As you note this arc could be in manipulation and not dead drift. In this case, my note/interpretation is completely incorrect.

I dead drift a ton. The window that I fish tenkara is mostly a colder season. My interpretation is in context of that…and I do believe some of it may be valid. I watch my line a lot.

related to your quoted passage above…
These notes are discussing 3.5 and 4.5 LL. Those are heavy lines. They must be paired with stiffer rods. Some rods fully load on a 2.5 LL…some cannot.

All in all there is not absolute right or wrong in here. If Master level anglers are questioning the need of fishing lighter lines…weighing the positives and negatives…they also may be indirectly noting the benefit is moot for their conditions. Rod choice, river choice, technique, and overall application.

In general there is so much consideration and buzz on use this and use that…and this is better…or that. Really technology and application needs to be discussed as one system.

Like…all the lines I am testing are on my TUSA sato. That is a stiffer rod. The lines may be like a lead weight on an Oni or worse on my Kurenai 33. The Kurenai can probably load on a human hair…hahahaaa. There is no way I can fish a human hair on the sato.

I have been hearing a bit about this ideal arc, and I wish to know more. It is academic for me. I am supposed to ask you more about it as you have it fresh in your training. The arc and drape discussion here and few weeks ago with a friend. It seems like there is more to it than just the concept of slack, something specific perhaps with presentation angle and force applied to the fly on a manipulation. Stuff over my head and skill level, but want to understand it.

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(Adam Rieger) #49

my apologies @Gressak I should have quoted what I was referring to. My comments were geared toward the content of that blog post that David posted where the author seemed, if I was reading correctly, to state that having the proper amount of slack helped with “atari” (the take or hit) detection and a better hook up ratio. The blogger seemed to think that a heavier line left more slack so better…but he could with a lower rod tip introduce more slack with a lighter line…

I guess I was not following the point of that mental exercise…:grinning:

While fishing with a tenkara rod is a “tight line” technique, some slack is important…but I think line choice is foremost about what works best with your rod, your casting style, the fly you plan to use and the weather conditions (wind in particular). I would say 2nd then is to pick the line that is the lightest you can handle to minimize the immediate drag on your fly via otsuri when it first lands. If you never cast to specific small target lies…then maybe otsuri does not matter at all and you just adjust your position or place you cast to??

I have no thoughts on Spiderwire or other line choices…I see no reason why lines other than Level flouro can’t be great. When I was in Japan spools of level line in the shops were very cheap…not that they are super expensive here…but I think in Japan since there is a bigger consumer market it is more available and cheaper so perhaps it is popular for that reason - best option with the most versatility at the lowest price?

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(Gressak) #50

No apologies necessary. That is how I interpreted it to, but you also touch on some other notes…like your second parargraph

It was noted to me that in manipulation the amount of slack, length of line, and curvature can be a critical balance. These are the notes that I am trying to absorb…not so much in response to this thread but rather the Klags. I can imagine the concepts, but imagining and understanding are two different objects.

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(Gressak) #51

I suspect that there is something in the system that goes beyond lightest line as possible in sabata’s notes. The interpretation suggests there is something in curvature…and something that the heavier line naturally delivered that the lighter line did not without adjustment.

If the translation is close to being correct. I find these points are of interest. More of a curiousity.

In other angling disciplines rod and line attributes play a role in presentation and technique. The same goes here. I suspect that there are attributes of a heavy line that may be positive factors in specific techniques…and not just it being easier to cast. Speculation and curiosity…

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(David Walker) #52

Chris, thank you for noticing and pointing out my wayward link. Actually I forgot to include a warning about the URL jumping to the wrong blog post for some mysterious reason. I’ve never seen a URL do that before.

When trying to post it I gave that link several nicknames: Transformer, Morpher, and Jumping Bean, because I could copy the correct URL and when pasted into a new browser tab the URL would change to the previous blog post, the one about the motorcycle. I would see the URL change from /200912010000/ to /200911280000/ .Very strange behavior. Which it did to me several times.

I have edited the the link in the original post, but in case for some mysterious reason it changes again,
the correct date for the correct blog post, titled レベルライン3.5号! (10) , is 2009/12/01.
The tail end of the correct URL should read /200912010000/ .

If you look at the top of the blog post there are soft buttons to navigate the blog,
< 新しい記事 新着記事一覧(全1295件) 過去の記事 >
< Newer article Article list (total 1295) Older article

Just click on the one on the top left side - link. < 新しい記事

Here is the correct link, if it doesn’t change again,
レベルライン3.5号! (10)
https://plaza.rakuten.co.jp/tenten2843/diary/200912010000/

btw - if you haven’t noticed it before, a blog post title or even part of a sentence from a webpage will almost act like a URL to find a webpage you’re looking for.

Do an internet search with the blog title and more often than not the webpage you want to find will be found on the first page of the search results. I did a google search for レベルライン3.5号! (10) and the link to that blog post was on the first page of search results. I pasted レベルライン3.5号! (10) into duckduckgo and the link to that blog post was on the second page of search results. So that little trick doesn’t just work with google, which tracks and remembers everywhere you go. I wonder if George Orwell used the word 'google" in his book 1984? It will also work with search engines that do not track your every move. Maybe only a little less efficiently.

btw - Chris, received the TB40 in the mail an hour ago. Very windy here today making it difficult to get a good feel for the rod and how it cast with the high wind moments pushing the rod and turning me into a wind vane. However, the wind was alternating between high wind and spells of almost calm wind for a couple of minutes. It cast the 4-hair horse hair 4.3m line nicely. Had to use a bit of an oval cast to avoid snapping the line, but that was probably due to me hurrying the cast before the wind blew the line down wind during the back cast.

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(Chris Stewart) #53

David, thank you for updating the line, I found the correct blog post.

I still have packages to ship today so I don’t have time to go into a lot of detail, but I found this sentence to be quite interesting:
There is no looseness of the line ⇒ Atari can not be taken → Hooking ratio drastically decreases

That is a concept that I only recognized a year or so ago when fishing an unweighted worm with a tenkara rod. For some time I have been interested in the “Zero” fishing style (niche) within keiryu fishing. In a nutshell, it uses the lightest possible hook, sinker, and line to add as little as possible (approaching zero) to the mass and drift of the natural bait. Because of the extremely light line (down to less than 1lb test) and also the idea that trout will spit out even live bait if they feel tension on the line, the Zero rods are also extremely soft. Most keiryu rods (not designed for lantern fishing) have soft tips. I think the main reason is to allow the fish to take the bait without feeling tension on the line.

I recognized when fishing a worm with no weight, using size 2.5 tenkara line, that the sag in the line created the same effect as an extremely soft rod tip. Because the sag was essentially slack line, the fish could take a bit of line (Atari) and not feel tension. It was really a very effective method of recognizing the fish was there before the fish recognized I was there.

I had assumed that the same concept would not hold with an artificial fly because the fish would immediately know that the fly was fake and spit it out. I learned last year that isn’t necessarily the case, and that the presence of some slack in the line can result in a fish holding a fly longer, and thus creating a better hook up ratio.

Up until these ideas started to gel, I had always favored the lightest possible line to reduce the line sag as much as possible - which allows better drifts because the line is less susceptible to drag caused by current differentials. I am beginning to think that there is an optimal level of sag - enough that the fish can take enough line for you to see the sag diminish before the fish feels the tension when the line becomes completely tight, but not so much that current differentials become a significant problem.

I haven’t had a chance to get out and test these ideas with flies and with different line weights (winter sucks).

Edited to add: have you seen the comments by Sebata and Katayama that the author references? I would like to see what they say about the idea.


The line snapping problem with the TB40 is definitely from hurrying the transition from back cast to forward cast. With a little less wind and a little slower stroke it will disappear.

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(Gressak) #54

@CM_Stewart If you are suggesting a deeper presentations, I often use a lot of slack.

As a teen I really enjoyed drifting a weightless worm using spinning gear…hand feeding out line to deliver via no tension. The water delivers the offering naturally to the holding fish.

I am a huge believer in this as any tension will prevent the offering to get where it needs to go.

Of all presentations it is the one I feel most comfortable with, yet this year I am branching out a bit with various manipulations.

My skill level is improving every year with the low/no tension approach and this year I have noticed a lot of takes and drops. More than previous years. I chalk it up to improvement in my observation and technique. Much like the advantage of manipulation…tension and pause is really important. I hear it a lot…anticipating a fish and setting hooks where you think they are. Sometimes I do not do a full hookset but enploy an occasional pulse and if there is weight…hookset. This season for whatever reason I have had a ton of strikes on zero tension that I see the line move and when I lift…there is nothing.

light line and soft rods…

I am using a sato…which for all purposes has a much stiffer tip than a lot of my other rods. Might not be the best for manipulation, but it will take up slack really quick. I have sort of been meditating on this ever since I have fished the Kurenai. The difference in the hookset, the behavior, and the feel of the fly.

For shallow presentations I suspect arc matters too in manipulation. This is where a lighter line might have a huge difference. I am at a loss when it comes to the details of shallow presentations. I am still just beginning my journey in that area, but from what I am told, arc matters there too and is very important. I have to work on that.

I know it seems like I am laboring all of this but the conversation helps me. I fish alone mostly, so I have no frame of reference other than what I am doing.

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(David Walker) #55

Guys, interesting comments. I think it should be kept in mind that the blog post is just over 8 years old. At that at time using 3号 or 2.5号 level line may have been less common than today.

And the blogger may have been in the early stages of learning tenkara himself. Maybe only two years. His first blog post is dated 2008/01/27. But it is a post saying he has moved, so maybe he had an older tenkara blog before, or maybe his older blog was not about tenkara, and with a new interest he started the 流れのままに2 blog. He may have still be developing his own understanding of line sag and how to get the proper amount.

I don’t think master level line anglers were questioning the need for fishing lighter lines. I think he only wrote that there are two factions, two philosophies about line choice

  • one group that favors using lighter lines for reduced otsuri and
  • the other group that favored heavier lines because they can be easier to cast with precision to the desired pin point, and they just use different tactics to deal with the additional line sag.

Each group using to advantage the characteristics of their preferred line choice. Even today you can read of some experienced Japanese tenkara anglers who prefer to use heavier western type fly lines.

I have fished a little bit with the Daiwa mono nylon tapered line. I can cast it well enough to get full line extension with my cast, but I have found it more difficult to precisely land the kebari where I was aiming. Unless it is just flat out dead calm wind, which is seldom is. For me lighter lines are more difficult to cast accurately to a pin point spot.

http://www.daiwa.com/jp/fishing/item/line/keiryu_li/tenkara_line_monotaper/index.html

In Adam Trahan’s interview of Kazuya Shimoda he states that when he started tenkara he used horse hair line, and a rod designed for bait fishing, that had some of the rod tip removed to make the rod stiffer and capable of casting the heavy horse hair line. And that at that time there were no level lines as we have today.

And I like this quote from the interview - “Nowadays we have rods and level line manufactured by professional craftsman and manufactures which is changing Tenkara from its origin.” - What? Tenkara is evolving from its origin? Some people seem to think that is verboten.

That interview was posted only two years ago, Jan 2017, yet Shimoda-san also stated, "The line I have adopted through trial and error results has good visibility and is smooth, works well in wind and is a durable Made in US shooting line 0.31sl. "

So even today when some skillful tenkara anglers in Japan are using 2.5号 or even 2.0 号 FC level lines ( see Ajari’s blog, he often uses , レベルライン:YGKよつあみ 与一 ULTRA Sight 2.0号 ラットオレンジ(4.3m)。) Or even nylon LL equivalent in weight to about 1.75 号 FC LL. , according to John and Paul at DT. Shimoda-san still prefers to use western shooting line. I think he is in the heavy line faction.

As for tippet giving you the desired amount of “slack” I think maybe it’s a combination of the amount of line slack and tippet slack, though the part about the tippet maybe tied to understanding what the Japanese call ito fuke (糸ふけ) .

I recall finding one of Ajari’s blog post in which he writes that he practices taking atari or awase with ito fuke. Hit detection or hooks sets with ito fuke. Don’t know if I could find the blog post again or not.

Ito fuke isn’t line sag in the air, I think its is more the line laying slack in waves, loops or curves on the water. I find webpages about salt water fishing wherein ito fuke is written about more than when keiryu tenkara fishing. (try finding a Japanese website talking about or diagramming otsuri, almost impossible to find. The DT blog post about it are the best sources.)

Anyway, maybe this video helps illustrate ito fuke.
糸ふけとは? 【海釣り初心者基礎知識入門】
What is ito fuke? [beginners introduction to basic sea fishing knowledge]

Aha, I was wrong. With the right search phrase, 糸ふけとテンカラ 合わせ [ ito fuke and tenkara awase] I quickly again found the Ajari post about it.

From two years ago. Where he wrote in the blog post.
自分は着水して・からのライン操作、送り込みの練習に時間を費やし、
糸フケでのアタリ取りを・最重点項目に置いており、これが今現在、数釣りには一番適した方法だと考えています。
[I spent time on practicing line manipulation, sending in from landing (splashdown)·, Putting atari removal with thread dandruff (ito fuke) as the top priority item, I believe that this is the most suitable (best) method for number fishing right now. [ 数釣り the phrase that translated as “number fishing”, seems to mean, catching the most fish. 数 appears to mean, quantity, amount, etc. ]

The above statement is written just above the picture of the albino trout, about 1/3 way down from the top of the blog post.

tenkara-ajari 2016年 初テンカラ First tenkara 2016

Here’s another blog post talking about taking atari with ito fuke.
A 2011 Dr. Ishigaki post from when he was in Montana. Writing
だから私やダニエルが 竿を高く構え、
細いレベルラインでピンスポットに毛鉤を落とし、
糸ふけでアタリを・取ることに驚いたようだ。
That’s why I and Daniel hold the rod high, dropped the fly to pin spot by a thin level line,
It seems that he (meaning Yvon) was taken by surprise at taking atari with thread dandruff (ito fuke.

Going on to write that if you have been fly fishing for many years with heavy tapered line, it might be natural to continue using the same line for tenkara, [ I believe that was a comment about Yvon’s style of tenkara fishing vs his and Daniel’ high rod tip method with light LL]

~ishigaki/tenkara/2011/ Montana 5

It’s a topic written about in several places. Maybe 糸ふけとテンカラアジャリ [ito fuke and tenkara ajari ] is a better search phrase. Though it does catch a lot of post about the person Tenkara-Ajari-san.

Here’s another Dr. Ishgaiki blog post in which is it mentioned, 糸フケのアタリもとれる。Atari from ito fuke can also be taken.
クリストフのテンカラ [ Christophe’s Tenkara]:

http://aitech.ac.jp/~ishigaki/tenkara/2015/kurisu.htm

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(David Walker) #56

Not really. Most of what is written is often difficult for me to translate.

You can find some of what Katayama-san writes about it in what he has written on the Daiwa pages. I have the book he wrote a couple of years ago, maybe I can find something in his book, or maybe with the right search phrase something he has written about it can be found online.

And of course Katayama issued a Level Line DVD last year. I have the DVD, I like it, but since I don’t speak the language it is difficult for me to pick out verbal comments about something like that. I haven’t watched it since last year. Maybe there is something in the subtitles I can pick up watching it again. And he is a level line advocate. afaik, he develops Daiwa’s level lines and LL rods.

Sebata-san otoh, I don’t think is in the light line camp.

I mostly see him fishing with the furled lines that he makes. Though of course we only see a small glimpse of how he fishes. Maybe he also sometimes fishes with light lines. My guess is the blog author was mostly referring to Sebata-san’s advice about the importance of the proper amount of line slack, sag, whatever is the proper term.

Maybe something can be found online. I know there is a blog post about the set up he uses in which he also mentions ito fuke. I will see if I can find it again. And post the link to this thread. He has also written several books about tenkara, but again difficult to find or translate if found, what he may have written about it. But who knows, with the right kanji in my mind, with a quick scan through one of his books maybe I can spot something. If I do I will try to write out a key phrase or two.

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(David Walker) #57

From 20101 瀬畑 翁とテンカラ ー年生のQ &A
Sebata Okina and tenkara first year students

Q4 is the one about line slack sag and atari with ito fuke

asahi-net 2001 瀬畑 翁とテンカラ ー年生の Q&A

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(Chris Stewart) #58

Well, either I don’t understand what you are trying to say or I disagree. Your tippet will rarely be perfectly straight if it is underwater because there are always current differentials, but any slack in the tippet doesn’t help you because you can’t see it disappear when a fish takes. Slack in the line (not the tippet) helps because the fish can take the fly and you will see the slack disappear (or the curvature of the drape change) before the line tightens and the fish then feels tension or befoire the fish decides the fly doesn’t feel or taste like a real bug and spits it out.

When you are manipulating your fly, each pull reduces (or eliminates) the slack. What I was referring to when fishing an unweighted worm with a tenkara line, and what I think the blogger was referring to was fishing a dead drift. That the blogger was fishing a dead drift does not suggest he is a beginner. I once asked Dr. Ishigaki when he manipulated the fly and when he fished dead drift. When he was fishing upstream, it was always dead drift. He manipulated the fly only when fishing straight across or downstream of where he was standing, and only then if it was in fairly quiet water like a large eddy. I do not recall ever seeing Tenkara no Oni manipulating the fly when he was fishing upstream of his position - unless the fly was in an eddy.

No. I was fishing relatively shallow water, certainly no deeper than knee deep and often only that.

My point about the slack really has nothing to do with water depth. It is all about the angler seeing the strike as line sag diminishes or disappears, before the fish feels line tension, which will occur primarily when the sag completely disappears and any further pull has to bend the rod tip.

I think the blogger’s point about the different amount of sag caused by different line weights was that with a lighter line there is less sag (meaning less slack) for the fish to take before it starts pulling against the rod rather than just taking up slack. It is also harder for the angler to see a slight change in the curvature of the line sag if there is very little sag to begin with. If he takes a step forward, that causes more sag in the line. The same effect could be achieved by stopping the forward cast with the rod tip a bit higher, and then slightly lowering the rod tip. I think his point, which I would not have agreed with a couple years ago but I do now, is that you do not want a tight line. You want some sag in the line because that sag (or rather changes in the amount of sag) is your strike indicator! With sag in the line you know that a fish has hit the fly before the fish knows the fly is fake. If your line is tight, strike detection has to be by feel. You and the fish will feel tension at the exact same time, and the fish is likely to be quicker than you are.

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(Gressak) #59

@CM_Stewart yes…and…agreed as i made the exact point a few comments back.

When i note deeper presentations i am not saying deep water…but it could be. I am cosidering any presentation deeper than a couple inches as deep presentations. Knee deep water is typical of many of the rivers i target. I fish the whole column but find most success starting at 6 inches to a foot below the surface.

Deep presentations have more variation in current and feeding slack allows the current to do its magic. Dead drift will most always be a deeper presentation unless you have tension
…which i try to avoid. That video by oz really illustrates how quickly current direction can 180 in water the seems to have a consistent direction of flow.

Skating and swingin flies are tight line techiques that i am just starting to grasp the last two seasons. Those are solid techiques…in fact a buddy of mine destroys me each time we fish together using those methods. So slack is not a must or a rule but also a method in the bag of tricks.

Finding what they want and having the vocabulary to do so is the name of the game.

What i am really curious about are shallow presentations and manipulations . Thats why i am sort of hung up on it and how slack plays into those presentations. From what i am told is where tenkara really shines. I know it sounds stupid…but even dry presentation techiques alude me. I get swirls but often fewer commits than deeper presentations.

I do not believe slack is the end all in catching fish…but I employ it a ton. God forbid i even rest the end of my casting line on the surface for the sake of slack…in both wind and calm conditions. I catch plenty of fish with all my tenkara sins. Recently i have been catching fish with tight line techiques when the ones with slack do not work…well…convert fish. Sometimes fish take and refuse without line movement. Seems tight line can be the ticket in those cases as when they take…they self engage.

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(Gressak) #60

Back on topic. I casted the 50# stealth. It was very similar to the 40#. This time i had a breeze.

Another angler remarked on how these lines have a similar behavior to the nylon lines. I suspect the weight to diameter ratios may be similar. I have to compare them to 3 nylon.

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